Gloria Gillott

Gloria Gillott, who pursued a career in operational research, was one of the few women to join Sigma, Stafford Beer's consulting company. Now pursuing a second career in creative writing, Gillott shares her experiences at Sigma. In the interview conducted on September 10, 2021, we discuss Beer's personality, his leadership style, and some of the projects tackled by Sigma.

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Evgeny: Could you introduce yourself?

Gloria: My name is Gloria Gillott, and I am currently living in two places - Cambridge and the West Midlands. As for my education, I have a degree in mathematics, specializing in operational research  and symbolic logic. This background led me to work for Stafford. Before that, I taught for one term in Dulwich after graduating and also got married.

SIGMA

Evgeny: How did you end up working at Sigma ?

Gloria: One Sunday, I saw an advertisement in the Observer magazine for senior operational research men. I wrote to the managing director, asking about junior operational research positions for women. I was immediately invited for an interview. During the interview, I met Stafford, and within half an hour, he offered me a job. I accepted the offer and began work a couple of weeks later.

Gloria in the SIGMA days (courtesy of Gloria Gillott)

Evgeny: Could you tell us about your role at Sigma and what responsibilities you had there?

Gloria: My role at Sigma was as a project assistant to Stafford Beer, and I was also the keeper of the tantalus, which was considered very important. Almost immediately after starting, I joined Stafford on a major project for the Ministry of Defence, where we worked on their premises. I can't tell you much about that project due to confidentiality, but I can say that we were positively vetted and instructed to be very careful with information, even avoiding pillow talk.

Evgeny: How did your responsibilities as the keeper of the tantalus play into your daily work at Sigma?

Gloria: Well, Stafford would often have evening meetings with scientists, and he'd offer them a glass of whiskey. As the keeper of the tantalus, I was responsible for opening it and serving the whiskey. On a typical day, I'd arrive early to ensure any necessary papers for the Ministry of Defense project were secure before setting off. The project also involved Roger Eddison , Major General Lancelot Perowne , and occasionally George Spencer-Brown , so I got to know them quite well during those few weeks.

Evgeny: Besides your work on the Ministry of Defense project, did you have any other responsibilities at Sigma?

Gloria: Yes, I was also the editor of Sitrep, short for situation report. This was an internal newsletter of sorts. I would gather details of ongoing projects from my colleagues and compile them into a newsletter that went out every two weeks to everyone in the company. Additionally, I helped protect Stafford from interruptions by managing access to his office through a series of rooms.

Evgeny: I understand that Stafford was quite the cigar smoker. How did that affect your working environment?

Gloria: Indeed, Stafford chain-smoked cigars, and his office was filled with thick smoke. Whenever I opened the door to his office, I'd immediately open a window to help clear the air. The smell of cigar smoke was so strong that it even permeated my clothes and caused my husband to become suspicious, but I assured him that my relationship with Stafford was strictly professional.

Evgeny: How many years did you spend in total at Sigma?

Gloria: I probably spent four years at Sigma. Stafford left to go to the International Publishing Company , and I then helped Sir Roland Whitehead in his role of obtaining more clients, but very briefly. Stafford asked me to work for him at IPC, and I went there briefly as his assistant, sitting in on many high-level meetings with people like Hugh Cudlipp . It was another exciting time, really. But then my husband obtained a job, and I had to leave to go with him.

Evgeny: Can you share a memorable experience from your time at Sigma?

Gloria: I have memories of going with Stafford to meet potential clients. I remember the excitement of striding through London, dressed in thigh-high boots designed by Mary Quant, while Stafford wore a cloak. We attracted quite a lot of attention and felt rather proud of ourselves. He would then take me for tea at Fortnum & Mason . Something unusual happened the very first time we went there; when I offered to pour the tea, he insisted on doing it himself. It was a lovely day.

Evgeny: How did Sigma find clients, and was there a deliberate effort to recruit them? Were there events, brochures, or other methods?

Gloria: I think individual Sigmen, including Stafford, went to visit potential clients. However, I don't have knowledge of how these clients came to their notice.

WOMEN IN OR / SIGMA

Evgeny: You mentioned "Sigmen" - is that what you called each other?

Gloria: Yes, people from the outside also knew it as an internal name derived from Sigma. Sigmen was used to refer to each other, and I was called something different.

Evgeny: What were you called?

Gloria: I was called “G squared” because of my initials, GG, and my interest in mathematics.

Evgeny: Were there other women working in more senior positions or in roles that were not project assistant and perhaps a bit more advanced?

Gloria: There was no other female employed in the role I had, knowing and experiencing and studying operational research. Having studied operational research, there was only one other woman on the scientific side, and that was Smith. I can't remember her qualifications, and we never coincided on a project. All the other females were support staff, like Stafford's secretaries and receptionists, nothing bigger. This has not been a surprise during my early life, and it's only recently that women have started reading operational research. I checked that out with Jonathan Rosenhead , who is professor emeritus at the London School of Economics. Since I graduated in the 1960s, I have only met one woman who knew what operational research was. She is a friend of mine, about 40 years younger than I am, and she's the only other woman I've ever met who studied operational research in all those years.

Evgeny: Later on, Stafford enjoyed the reputation as a bit of a womanizer, but was there any sign of that already in the 60s?

Gloria: I am sure that all the women at Sigma felt safe. He was respectful to all of us, and as for his family life, I think there were times he mentioned that his wife was a little quiet for him, and he couldn't share work matters with her. But they had a lot of children, and she came to the office with some of the children, and they all seemed fine. Though she was a quiet woman, I don't think she could have been matched with someone as loud as he was and full of that much vigor. He was a special man.

I think Stafford could have a bit of teasing, and we did have a really tiny bit of flirtation the day he left. He took the three of us out for lunch, and I remember sitting in the back of the Jaguar. We did have a little bit of rapport that was on the edge of being flirtatious, but nothing more than that.

COMPUTING AT SIGMA

Evgeny: Did you get a sense of what, if anything, was distinctively cybernetic about the work that you and your colleagues were working?

Gloria: Only in retrospect, I can see that the project, especially the one for the Ministry of Defense, was about Decision and Control . But I don't remember the word cybernetics being used at all by anybody at that time. No management cybernetics, no. But operational research appeared in the advertisement and because it was one of my special subjects at university, that drew me to answer the advertisement. I have never regretted it.

Evgeny: Was there much talk about computers around Sigma? Did you have special machines because it seems like they were very important to Stafford while he was at United Steel ?

Gloria: Oddly, no, there was a computer room in the offices when we were at, I think, Wetton House. There was a computer room which was manned by a young man who kept it going all day, and he would perspire profusely. Some of the secretarial staff, I remember, bought him something to control their perspiration. That's all I can say about computers, really. I mean, we didn't use computers at all. I had a calculating machine on my desk, such an ancient thing. You probably wouldn't know about it now, just for multiplication, division, and addition.

Evgeny: Was your role primarily focused on performing calculations, or can you tell us a bit more?

Gloria: For the Ministry of Defense, I didn't have to perform calculations. But I remember some Sigmen going on holiday and leaving me pages and pages of calculations to do without telling me what the purpose was or if I could make any intelligent input. Other Sigmen came and said they shouldn't have done that.

Evgeny: What can you tell us about the organizational culture at Sigma?

Gloria:. We were encouraged to bond because every mid-morning we had a meeting. What I seem to remember was called the library. It was a central, fairly central room in the building where we would have coffee and talk to each other, sometimes for too long. So that was a bonding session we had because we would meet people working on other projects other than our own, and it meant we could all get out of our offices. Mainly, it was open plan, though I think just Stafford's entourage had offices. He did want interdisciplinary people working there. I can't remember the nature of the different disciplines. I always thought mine was a bit interdisciplinary in that I had different A-level subjects, which I sometimes drew on, but I don't remember others, I do remember.

MEETING STAFFORD BEER

Evgeny: Can you recount your first meeting with Stafford Beer?

Gloria: Well, I met him in a room where I was to be interviewed. He stood up to greet me, and he was taller than I, which was good because I'm tall. I was really impressed, and I thought immediately that I'd like to work here for him. I didn't know then that I was going to be his project assistant; I thought I was going to be one of the consultants. He was the sort of person who'd walk into a room full of people before they had seen him. His presence was felt amazingly so, and people would all turn even before he spoke. It was really strange, but he had a strong, loud voice and a big laugh, and people would turn to him.

Evgeny: Did you have any other memorable encounters with Beer?

Gloria: I met him later, though I was invited to meet him earlier. He invited me to visit him at his cottage in Wales, but my husband didn't like the idea, so I didn't go. The last time I saw him, and this makes me sad, was when he came to Cambridge with Allenna . I almost felt strongly, rightly or wrongly, that he'd come to say goodbye because he died shortly afterwards, and I wasn't able to go to the funeral for domestic or other reasons. I can't remember now, but I had a strong feeling that a cloak he wore as we strode through London should have been thrown over his coffin. I just wanted that to happen, and that is the thought I have now after all these years, but that was the last time.

Evgeny: Was Beer a demanding boss? Was he bossy in general?

Gloria: I think he needed support from his secretary and from me, but he knew what was happening all the time, and he would lead the way. He often wanted us to feed him certain information, but he would say what he needed, and he was a very powerful person. We all respected him. I remember he'd have meetings with whiskey, and a lot of us would be in the office, and he would tell us about a report he was doing for, I believe, the Ministry of Defense. It was in symbolic logic, which was one of my special subjects, but none of us in the room understood it because it was too complex. He explained it fully, but we could not have done it ourselves. He would want, if he asked for some information, it to be accurate, but he wasn't unpleasantly demanding.

Evgeny: How did the employees of Sigma view Beer?

Gloria: They would see him as a wise father of the company who cared about whether they were comfortable in the project chosen for them and was always ready to answer questions. I do remember he had to fire somebody, and it upset him greatly. I was uncomfortable about it, but it was the right thing. He made a decision, and he had to do it, but he didn't like doing it at all.

Evgeny: Did you get a sense of whether Stafford was a deeply spiritual man or if he was very artistic? Did you ever get a glimpse of his art practice, like poetry, writing, and other things that he was doing? Did they come out in the workplace?

Gloria: Somehow I suspected Stafford was a spiritual man and that philosophical thoughts crossed his mind in his office. He had a painting behind the chair in which he sat, and if I remember correctly, it was called "Man Thinks about Himself." I wish I could describe it for you, but it was very unusual. I don't know whether this is relevant at this point, but I did contribute.

Evgeny: Did it sound normal, the way he spoke?

Gloria: He was obviously very articulate but completely understandable when he was talking about subjects. We all have a little knowledge of when he was describing a report written in symbolic logic. He did lose the audience, but his voice was clear, powerful, and strong. We loved listening to him, totally in admiration.

Evgeny: Do you remember what his office looked like? You were talking about the painting behind him, but do you remember any other peculiar decorations or anything that was distinctive?

Gloria: Obviously, in his office, I'm not aware of anything else in Stafford's office other than that painting. Under the heading "artistic," I cannot say I read any poetry of his at the time, and he didn't make it known as far as I'm concerned, so I have nothing to add to that.

Evgeny: Could you ever predict that he would go and work for a socialist government later in his life?

Gloria: Nothing that Stafford had said in my presence at the time would have made me think he would go and work for a socialist government. I was surprised that he worked so far from home, as it were, but I know there was something drawing him there. I hadn't really thought of it as being socialist; it didn't cross my mind. I could possibly analyze it now with more thought as to why he did that. I know the loss of it upset him hugely, but that's all I can say on that, I'm afraid.

Evgeny: What kind of future did you imagine he could have in the 70s and 80s? Obviously, you probably weren't imagining that he would spend his life in a cottage in Wales?

Gloria: I could not have imagined that Stafford would end up in a cottage in Wales. Nothing occurred to me then that would have predicted that. I would have thought at that time it was most unlikely. I might have said, "Don't be ridiculous" to someone. But at the end of the 60s, I was otherwise engaged because I had my first child in 1970, so I was not thinking of Stafford, God bless him. I had other things, like the arrival of a second son, so I sort of naturally switched off from such thoughts.

Evgeny: What did you make of Stafford's drinking habits and his cigars? Did he seem excessive at any point, and was it in line with what was common at that time?

Gloria: The smoking, I would say, was excessive, but he obviously needed it and enjoyed it. We didn't know the danger of smoking very much at that time. We were beginning to be aware because I graduated in 1960 or 61, and I had been a smoker at college. When I arrived home the day after graduating, my father said, “See if you can manage without cigarettes,” because we were beginning to know that they could be dangerous. I stopped, but all the time I knew Stafford, he smoked profusely. He liked the occasional whiskey, but he didn't overdo it in any way. At Sigma, where other members also drank at evening meetings, I would be asked to release the tantalus and pour. They were always men, and as Sigmen, I had to pour them a drink. Then I would leave them, lock up the tantalus, take the key away, and they would have their chat over a glass of whiskey. I think it was not to release their tongues but just a nice, sociable end to the day.

STAFFORD AS A BOSS

Evgeny: Gloria, I wanted to ask you about how Stafford behaved towards his fellow workers. In the United Steel, for example, he claimed in many interviews that he felt workers were overexploited by management and not paid appropriately for their discoveries. That was one reason he left, stating he would always be on the side of the trade unions. I understand that a consulting firm like Sigma is very different from a steel factory, but did you get any sense of how he treated his fellow workers, especially those below him? What was it like to have him as a boss?

Gloria: Of course, Sigma was his own creation, and United Steel was a very different environment. He would have been involved with unions there. I don't remember any union contacts when I was at Sigma. I think Stafford was keen to be fair to all the staff and to pay them fairly for what they did without them having to negotiate or plead for it.

Evgeny: What do you think were the reasons for his departure from Sigma? How would you explain why he left?

Gloria: It seemed strange to me at the time. He would meet privately with the senior people in Sigma, like Roger Eddison, and he would have given the reason then, but I don't remember him giving a reason. Some of us assumed that IPC, being the biggest publishing company in the world, had a big attraction for a big man like Stafford, but I'm guessing a bit there. I don't think he was asked to leave Sigma or anything like that. Sometimes things go on behind the scenes that one doesn't know about, but I was not aware of it.

Evgeny: Could you share one of the most significant moments you had at Sigma, particularly when you interacted with Stafford Beer, and something that made you appreciate working there?

Gloria: There were many great moments at Sigma, but one that stands out was when Stafford asked me to contribute to his book, Decision and Control. He had written a lot of it already, but he felt that a particular part needed more substance, along with an algorithm and a drawing. We discussed it, and I created a diagram for him. He liked it a lot and said it was going in the book. It was an interesting challenge for me because I hadn't worked so closely with someone of his caliber before. Another memorable moment was when I left Sigma. Stafford was there, and they gave me a punch bowl and glasses as a farewell gift. That punch bowl and glasses still remind me of Sigma today.

Evgeny: Do you remember anything about Stafford's writing process? Did he write his book at that time or did he have help?

Gloria: He dictated quite a lot to Christine, who typed most of the book. He would also make notes and write himself, but Christine handled the majority of it.

Evgeny: Did you get a sense that Stafford perhaps had a chip on his shoulder because he never obtained a proper university degree, not even a bachelor's? Was it something discussed at the company?

Gloria: I knew that Stafford didn't finish a degree at university, but I think he had so many people admiring him and he made significant contributions in various areas that if he did feel he had a chip on his shoulder, which I wasn't aware of, he definitely shouldn't have. For example, he wrote one of the leading books in the field, Decision and Control, with input from me. It won the Lancaster Manchester Prize in 1966. He reached out to so many different people in numerous organizations, so I believe a BA was immaterial at that time. I don't recall seeing any regret about his lack of a degree in him.

Evgeny: Do you recall him speaking fondly about Wales? He grew up in Wales, partly, and spent some years there before and during the war.

Gloria: I don't remember him talking about Wales specifically. Of course, he went to Wales after I'd left, but he kept in touch with me. His life was quite different in the Welsh cottage, but he seemed to enjoy the escape. He was very creative there, although he became a different man and grew a long beard. It was during this time that he met Allenna, and they had a very intense relationship. They were deeply in love. When I saw them together in Cambridge, I was surprised by his choice, as she didn't seem like his type, but they were happy. The relationship was intense, and they loved each other very much and needed to be together.

GEORGE SPENCER-BROWN

Evgeny: Could you please tell us about how you got to know George Spencer-Brown and your experience working with him?

Gloria: I first met George Spencer-Brown during a project at the Ministry of Defense. He was part of the team, and sometimes it was just the two of us there. I'd have to have lunch with him, and I say "have to" because he wasn't very chatty. He would usually be reading something, and I'd have to almost force him to talk. He probably thought he was much more knowledgeable about everything than I was, which might be true, but he did teach me something.

He talked about queuing theory, which I had studied, but I never had any chance of discussing it with anyone. He explained how queuing theory related to everyday life, especially in regards to buses. I wrote down the mathematics of it at the time and kept that piece of paper in my bedside drawer for years, often referring to it. Spencer-Brown wasn't very chatty and friendly, but Stafford, our project lead, obviously respected his intellect.

Evgeny: How was his contribution to the Ministry of Defense project?

Gloria: I don't think it was appropriate for the project because he hardly said anything or kept his thoughts to himself. He seemed to be doing other things entirely, like thinking about his book, which is brilliant, but some colleagues said they didn't understand any of it at all. The Spencer-Brown I worked with at the Ministry of Defense wasn't a good companion, as he didn't engage in idle chat.

Evgeny: How long did he work on the project and what happened after that?

Gloria: He didn't work on the project for very long because Stafford moved him to something else. I don't think he was making any significant contribution, really. I believe he was more interested in his own work and writing, which Stafford encouraged him with. Later, when Stafford moved to IPC, George Brown appeared there as well, but he was dismissed, reportedly due to his lack of input. I think Stafford himself dismissed him, and George Brown took Stafford to court for wrongful dismissal. I don't remember the court case, as I wasn't present, but I think Stafford won the case.

Evgeny: Gloria, do you know how Spencer-Brown got hired by Sigma? It seems a bit odd for them to employ someone like that. Can you tell us how that happened?

Gloria: I don't know the background or the relationship he had with Stafford. It was believed that Stafford wanted to encourage Spencer-Brown in some work he was doing, and that's why he took him on under the roof of Sigma and then took him to IPC. There was always a bit of mystery surrounding him. As far as I'm aware, he was never considered a full part of the Sigma group of people. He was always on the margins, and I didn't know the background to it.

Evgeny: At this point, what did your colleagues at Sigma think of Spencer-Brown? Did you see him as a character?

Gloria: I think the people at Sigma were puzzled as to why Stafford employed George Brown because, as far as they were concerned, they could not see his contribution at all, nor could I. It was a mystery, and we thought it might have been some ideas Stafford had that could be useful to him or kind to Spencer-Brown, but that's just an impression.