Bernardo Andrews

Bernardo Andrews is known for his work with various bureaucratic structures during the Allende government and his subsequent career with Fernando Flores in the consulting and design space in Chile and other Latin American countries. The interview conducted on October 25, 2022, provides insights from a friend of one of our main podcast protagonists, Fernando Flores. We learn about Fernando's university experience, his interactions with fellow students, and reflections on his early career.

Evgeny: Bernardo, you’ve known Fernando Flores since you were both teenagers. How did the two of you meet?

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Bernardo: I was born in a small town in the north of Chile. Later, I relocated to the south, about a thousand kilometers south of Santiago, where I spent my years until I turned 17. My school was part of a monastic institution run by dedicated brothers who focused on education. Interestingly, they also operated colleges in Talca – that’s where Fernando was born – and Santiago.

So, we crossed paths when we were 17. We both enjoyed playing basketball and were proud of our respective teams. We initiated a conversation during medical examinations and discovered our shared educational background, which drew us closer. We exchanged stories about different professors we had and even challenged each other intellectually. That's how our friendship began.

We both relocated to Santiago to study around the same time. I believe it was in March of 1959.

Evgeny: What did you both study in Santiago?

Bernardo: We both intended to study engineering and consequently enrolled in the Catholic University . The university was renowned for its engineering program alongside the University of Chile.

We both began our journey in civil engineering. The program was designed in a way that for the first three years, all the students studied the same curriculum. By the fourth year, we had to choose our specific fields. Fernando chose industrial engineering, while I continued with civil engineering.

Evgeny: Can you share any other impressions of Fernando from that time?

Bernardo: Fernando was a small-town kid, like myself, who moved to Santiago. He was eager to make a name for himself, much like I was. We were both slightly out of place among the wealthier students from Santiago, so we naturally gravitated towards each other and formed study groups with other students from different parts of Chile.

Evgeny: Did Fernando's life change during university?

Bernardo: At that time, Fernando was courting a woman named Gloria. He had expressed his intentions to marry her to one of his close friends when he was around 15 years old. However, they were not married yet, nor did they have a formal relationship acknowledged by their parents, given the conservative times.

His life underwent a significant change when he married her, I believe it was during our third year at the university. He was absolutely certain about his decision to marry her, regardless of any hurdles. His new marital status pushed him to seek work and provide for his family.

Evgeny: Can you share any anecdotes or stories about Fernando from your time studying together?

Bernardo: Fernando was always a curious and rigorous learner. At the start, I would say I had a slight edge over him in mathematics, but he quickly surpassed me due to his rigorous study habits. He was more interested in understanding the sources of knowledge, the materials our professors were reading themselves, and following up on these leads than simply attending lectures. He was truly a curious individual.

Another interesting aspect of Fernando was his admiration for his mother, who ran a lumber business. He often spoke about how she inspired him, which was rare for our generation. Like Fernando, I was proud of my parents' hard work and their aspirations for us to have good lives through education and acquiring professional titles.

Evgeny: Was there a particular episode or incident where other students understood that Fernando clearly has some leadership skills?

Evgeny: Could you share your experiences about Fernando Flores during your early years?

Bernardo: Today, I can interpret those early experiences in my own way. There's a saying, "silence speaks volumes," and this applied to Fernando. He had a remarkable academic record, but people often chose not to discuss this. Fernando once shared his achievements with me, and I found myself wondering why others didn't mention them.

Take for instance, our tests in Rational Mechanics, a very complex subject. It involves solving challenging problems such as determining the movement of an object in space after various actions. This requires the execution of complex equations. However, Fernando always approached these problems in a very elegant and efficient manner, often outperforming even the assistant professors. Strangely enough, no one seemed to acknowledge his accomplishments in this area.

Evgeny: Why do you think others did not acknowledge his achievements?

Bernardo: In my view, some might have been envious or unprepared to praise someone as unconventional as Fernando. Despite being from a province, his ability often surpassed that of the locals, which caused discomfort. This is something Fernando had to navigate in many ways.

Fernando never dwelled on negative experiences or humiliations. Instead, he chose to look past them and didn't let them affect him. For example, in Operation Research, a field studied by Industrial Engineers, Fernando once wrote a paper in response to a problem, drawing from various sources. His approach, rather than providing a simple answer, was applauded by his professors. However, his classmates were less appreciative.

Evgeny: What do you believe drove and motivated Fernando?

Bernardo: Fernando was always very dedicated and hardworking. But more than a desire to earn money or provide for his family, I believe he was driven by a commitment to succeed and to validate his worth. His achievements were a form of tribute to his mother, whom he admired greatly. One incident that stands out involves a consulting company where he worked. Despite being a student, he outperformed even qualified engineers, earning their respect and proving his worth.

Evgeny: Can you recall any specific instances which highlight Fernando Flores' tenacity and problem-solving abilities?

Bernard:o Definitely, one story that stands out happened while he was working for a significant consulting company. They were struggling with an issue, the details of which escape me now, but it involved providing services for the railways and had something to do with British Sigma. At the time, Fernando was technically underqualified for his position; he hadn't yet fulfilled all the company's criteria. But he was hired on the condition that if he didn't perform better than an engineer, they could let him go. Fernando took on the challenge confidently, resorting to unconventional methods like combing through directories and making hundreds of phone calls to find a solution. It was his ability to take action and confront difficulties head-on that made him stand out.

Evgeny: Why did Fernando choose not to pursue academia after his degree?

Bernardo: Fernando didn't leave academia due to professional reasons. It was more about his desire to overcome challenges, irrespective of whether they were technical, career-related, or something else. It was the human element, his sheer determination that drove him. This determination was also evident in his personal life. For instance, when he decided to marry his girlfriend, Gloria, despite opposition from her father, he told him straight, "No matter what, we will marry, be it today, tomorrow, or next year." Eventually, her father had to admit Fernando's unwavering commitment and gave his support.

Evgeny: What significant impact did his first son's polio diagnosis have on Fernando?

Bernardo: His son Rodrigo's diagnosis with polio indeed brought about a big change in Fernando's life. While he did not express his suffering openly, it was evident that he was deeply affected. He continued working and managing his company, Gloria, enduring his personal turmoil until things improved. His ability to mask his suffering was a testament to his resilience.

Evgeny: Fernando only formally completed his studies – i.e. got the title of the engineer – in 1970, correct?

Bernardo: Indeed, Fernando finished his university studies around 1963-64, but he didn't receive his professional title until 1970. The reason behind this delay was that we had to complete a thesis under the guidance of a professor. Fernando, who was already working by then, did not find the time to do so. However, I believe that the necessity of possessing a university degree for a political career motivated him to eventually complete his thesis and receive his title. His thesis was, interestingly, more focused on the sociological aspects of industrial management than on engineering.

Bernardo Andrews

Evgeny: Can you talk about Fernando's political leanings during his university years?

Bernardo: Fernando, much like me, was a supporter of Christian democracy at that time. We both grew up in Christian communities and attended the same school, Lasalle, which nurtured a sense of community and compassion for the poor. These values influenced our support for the Christian democracy movement. After university, Fernando started working for the Ministry of Public Works and got involved in transportation planning around 1966. We reconnected around 1969 when I moved to the railway company and began supporting Allende's presidency. It was around this period that Fernando developed a keen interest in systems and operational research, which he pursued further in his subsequent roles at California project, British Sigma, railways, and the Catholic University.

Evgeny: Can you discuss Fernando's contributions during his time at the Catholic University?

Bernardo: Fernando held a crucial administrative role at the Catholic University. From this position, he established and maintained several important contacts. He also became fascinated with cybernetic conversations and started study groups with his colleagues and younger engineers. These groups focused on the works of notable figures like Norbert Wiener, Stafford Beer, and their theories on decision and control. This period was indeed formative for Fernando as he broadened his intellectual horizon and laid the groundwork for his later political and academic contributions.

At that time, I was somewhat detached from these activities. I was preoccupied with my family and my studies. Even so, I was able to reconnect with these intellectual endeavors by 1969.

Evgeny: Could you describe your interactions with Fernando Flores during this period? Did he mention any specific challenges he encountered in CORFO?

Bernardo: Fernando and I did discuss various issues, but our discussions were sporadic. Our conversations mainly revolved around managing the complexities of running a government-owned conglomerate. I suggested that we needed to understand what people do at work, but we quickly realized that it was not easy to classify and categorize these interactions. This realization eventually led Fernando to develop a platform for facilitating change.

Overall, Fernando was seen as a promising young talent by Allende, thanks to his rigorous and grounded approach. He wasn't just making assessments - he was building foundations. His contributions didn't go unnoticed, even leading Carlos Pratt, the head of the army, to visit Fernando in the hospital. I believe that Fernando gained the respect of both the ideologically driven and the supportive side of politics.

Evgeny: How would you describe Fernando's role and responsibilities during the October strike of 1972?

Bernardo: Fernando was assigned as the head of operations during the strike. I was in Florida working on railway logistics at the time, so we did not collaborate directly. But I remember that Stafford Beer was a frequent visitor to Chile during that period, although I did not have the opportunity to meet him personally.

Evgeny: How did Fernando's perspective on project Cybersyn evolve time?

Bernardo: Fernando was initially very excited about project Cybersyn, particularly in 1971. However, by early 1973, he had to distance himself from the project due to pressing political imperatives. I remember discussing the likelihood of a military coup with him around that time, and he believed it was inevitable.

In 1973, the societal unrest was palpable. Open conflicts between civilians became more frequent. When a commander was killed, it was clear that something drastic was brewing. Fernando and I had a conversation about this, and he believed that a military coup was inevitable, although he couldn't predict when exactly it would happen.

Evgeny: Can you describe how your relationship evolved happened after the coup?

Bernardo: Fernando was arrested during the coup. I tried to join him but couldn't reach him. I spent time at a safe house, worrying about his fate. After the coup, I lost contact with his family and was concerned for my own safety.

During Fernando's imprisonment in Ritoque, we sent him books, understanding the potential risks involved. We also arranged to send his beloved books to California after he left Chile.

In the 1980s, after facing financial hardships, I reconnected with Fernando, spent a month in California with him, and eventually worked for him for a couple of years. We then focused on what we could do for Chile.

Evgeny: How did you re-establish contact?

Bernardo: Well, Fernando didn't call me for pleasantries. He reminded me of a conversation we had about communication, back when Allende's government was starting in Chile and he was in Talca. He told me he had found an answer to our discussion and invited me to listen.

I declined at first due to my busy schedule. But as Pinochet's government came to power, my company went bankrupt due to the instability of the currency. So, in 1982, after stepping away from my company, I took up Fernando's offer.

Evgeny: What happened next?

Bernardo: I spent a month in California with him, then returned to Chile. Over the next couple of years, I mulled over my experiences and eventually decided to work with Fernando. We spent a few years in California, brainstorming how we could make a difference in Chile, especially through communication and action courses.

We've been closely associated ever since, despite some breaks in the early 2000s when he sold Business Design Associates. In 2010, while I was taking sailing classes in Berkeley, Fernando offered me something more exciting and we began working together again.

Evgeny: One last question about the California years and your early association with Werner Erhard . Did Fernando feel embarrassed by it as the years went by?

Bernardo: Not really. Fernando didn't feel embarrassed about his association with Werner Erhard. They collaborated on Hermenet, a company financed by Werner. While Fernando admired Werner's work, he also had some unspoken concerns about certain aspects of his behavior. Fernando eventually ventured into education and long-term courses, establishing his own company.

Evgeny: You never mentioned his father. Was everything okay?

Bernardo: His father was an absent figure in Fernando's life, working as a machinist for the railway. He often traveled, and I don't know if he returned home every day. Fernando's father became more present after his mother's passing but didn't offer much support during his time in prison.

I met him several times, but he didn't seem to care much for his son. He was more like a distant companion, not someone proud of Fernando. His mother was the guiding figure in his life.