David Whittaker

David Whittaker, an Irish-born book dealer, shares insights into Stafford Beer from the perspective of a friend and long-time pen pal. In our interview on July 29, 2021, Whittaker shares anecdotes of Beer's life post the Chilean coup, primarily centred around their correspondence and mutual interest in obscure books.

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Evgeny: Could you tell us about how you first encountered Stafford Beer and his ideas?

David: Sure, I was 17 at the time and living in Ireland. Roxy Music's  unique look and style, particularly Brian Eno's , caught my attention, and I began following his career and purchasing all of his records. Eno's interviews discussing Stafford Beer's work on cybernetics and music were particularly enlightening. I found his ideas about how technology could enhance creativity fascinating. It was an entirely new way of thinking about music, and it opened my mind to a lot of new possibilities.

STAFFORD AND HIS BOOKS

Evgeny: Did you have any luck finding his books?

David: I started by searching for Brain of the Firm , a book Eno had recommended in an interview. I eventually found Decision and Control and Platform for Change  by Stafford helpful in my research. I continued to be interested in Stafford's work, and Eno frequently talked about him in interviews.

Evgeny: How did your correspondence with Stafford Beer begin, and how did your friendship develop?

David: I wrote to Stafford, care of his publisher, John Wiley, asking where I could find a copy of The Brain of the Firm. Several months later, I received a package from Stafford containing a handwritten letter and a paper he had written for the Teilhard de Chardin  center called "I Said You Are Gods" .

The letter informed me that Brain of the Firm was reprinted with an expanded and revised edition, including all of the Chilean material. I soon acquired the new edition of Brain of the Firm and began corresponding with Stafford regularly. As a book dealer, I was also able to find and send him books that he was interested in reading. Our friendship developed over time, and we even met up in person. I eventually wrote a memoir about our experiences together, and we remained in constant contact for the last 20 years of his life.

Evgeny: As his book seller, can you tell us a bit about his literary tastes?

David: Stafford and I corresponded about various topics, including getting hold of important books on Tantric yoga that Arthur Avalon published during the Edwardian era. The books were out of print, and Stafford was eager to read them. I managed to find them for him, which was a big hit. However, the books were in Sanskrit, and there was no glossary, making them difficult to read. We also shared our interests in Zen Buddhism and Chinese Taoism, and I would send him books on those topics. Stafford was also keen on cybernetics and other thinkers, like Alan Watts , who was part of the counterculture in California in the 60s and 70s. Stafford also read some Jung and Borges stories that I had shared with him.

Evgeny: You also took care of his own very extensive book collection, right?

David: When Liverpool John Moores University expressed interest in purchasing Stafford Beer's books, Stafford suggested that a bookseller could come and value them. So he gave me the job, and I spent a long day at the house going through his extensive book collection, which was quite extraordinary. Stafford's book collection was housed at his wife Sally's big house, where his second family lived. All of the collection was stored there, and it was truly impressive, with titles covering a wide range of topics. It was a privilege to go through them and assess their value.

STAFFORD IN WALES

Evgeny: You visited him in Wales. Can you tell us about his living conditions there?

David: The cottage where he lived lacked modern amenities. There was no running water, so Stafford collected water from a well in big plastic tanks, which he stored in the back of his old Land Rover. He also did not have a toilet, so one had to go out and use the garden, which was quite primitive. The cottage, however, did have electricity, and Stafford had a tiny fridge, just big enough to fit bottles of wine. I never saw any food in the cottage and only saw Stafford eat when we went to a restaurant, even though he had a sweet tooth. The only thing I recall eating at the cottage was a banana on my first visit.

When I first entered the cottage, I felt as though I was walking into a cave. The cottage was packed with piles of unusual artifacts Stafford had collected on his travels worldwide. There was a big picture from Native Americans from British Columbia, and lots of stuff from Chile, his painting canvas, piles of books and papers, the smell of incense and candles, little Buddhas, and big piles of fire logs. There were also Sanskrit writings, including "Tat Tvam Asi" from the Upanishads, which translates to "thou art that," meaning that one is one with the universe. There was also an equation about negative entropy painted on the wall and "Think Before You Think," which I used as the title of the anthology of his writings that I put together, along with some other quotes. I believe there might have been a couple of lines from Shakespeare as well. Despite the lack of modern amenities, the cottage had nice tapestries and rugs that added to its charm.

Stafford made me feel right at home quickly. He lit a fire and the cottage had a warm and cozy feeling. Stafford was very hospitable and welcoming, and I felt comfortable around him. Despite his eccentric lifestyle and primitive living conditions, he had a charming personality that made me feel at ease.

Evgeny: What did he do at the cottage besides working?

David: Stafford used an old spinning wheel to weave rough sheep's wool that he had obtained from locals. He used weaving as a form of meditation, influenced by Gandhi's  philosophy of non-violence, which he learned about while serving as part of the crowd control troops in India. Stafford had seen Gandhi speak twice, and he was inspired by the photos of Gandhi weaving on his spinning wheel to create the basic clothes he wore. Although Stafford had made a few jumpers through weaving, he mostly used it as a satisfying, meditative experience to help him focus and unwind his mind.

Evgeny: How was the house furnished?

David: The furniture in Stafford's cottage was basic and simple, without any ornate items. He had always been good with his hands, and he enjoyed making things. After the trauma he experienced in Chile, Stafford initially isolated himself and suffered a nervous breakdown. The solitude of the cottage was essential to his mental health.

Evgeny: Did Stafford get along with his neighbors?

David: Stafford learned the Welsh language to assimilate himself with the locals in Wales, who had been apprehensive about English people buying cottages in the area during the 70s. To gain their trust, he had a sign on his door that read, "Please do not burn down my cottage; I live here," and called himself "Professor Cwrw," using the Welsh word for beer. He also wrote poetry using Welsh rhythms, a complex technique known as Cynghanedd that dates back to the Middle Ages. Stafford's love of poetry was lifelong, and he was an avid reader with a vast collection of ancient to modern works on his shelves. His favorite was Shakespeare's sonnets, and he was particularly interested in the Welsh bardic tradition of oral poetry.

STAFFORD’S POETIC AND SPIRITUAL SIDE

Evgeny: Can you tell me more about Beer’s family background and how it may have influenced him?

David: Yes, Stafford's family background was quite interesting. His mother was a painter, and she would occasionally create sculptures of his head. On the other hand, his father worked in London for an insurance company and was a very predictable figure, going to work every day with a bowler hat, a brolly, and a pinstripe suit. However, in the 1960s, he left his family and ran off with a woman who was much younger than him, leaving his wife and children behind. This was a significant departure from his father's usual punctuality and consistency.

Evgeny: So Stafford’s artistic side must have come from his mother. What can you tell us about his poetry?

David: Stafford tried to incorporate Welsh rhythms into his English poetry and was successful in his endeavors. His poems were well-crafted, much like his furniture, and the lengthy notes at the end of his book Transit explained the Welsh meter. The poems in the book were constructed with much care and thought, and Stafford recited poetry well, especially in the Welsh meter. Although he was well-known in town and affectionately greeted by the locals in the pub, they sometimes viewed him as a slightly nutty professor, but he was highly respected. He enjoyed conversing with them in Welsh, which often resulted in laughter, and he occasionally held forth one of his poems in English using Welsh meter, leaving them slightly puzzled.

Evgeny: What other languages did Beer speak?

David: Stafford knew his way around Sanskrit, which he had learned while serving in India during the war, and he translated works such as the Bhagavad Gita , as well as works by Plato and Aristotle from Greek. His early notebooks are available at the Liverpool John Moores archive.

Evgeny: Can you tell us about Stafford's religious background?

David: Yes, Stafford used to be a devout Catholic and attended mass regularly. He was deeply affected when the traditional Latin mass was replaced with an English version because the ritual was important to him. However, he later became disillusioned by the Pope and became anglo.

During one requiem mass, Stafford realized that no one had ever painted paintings devoted to the requiem. This idea stayed with him for years, and he eventually began creating a series of paintings with the requiem in mind and turning this into an installation. The paintings were laid out in a geometric format based on the enneagram on the floor. He even asked me to contact Brian Eno on his behalf to help him produce music for this. However, Eno suggested using some of his existing music, such as Music for Airports , which Stafford rejected. So instead, he ordered a synthesizer but he was out of time to really compose anything of his own.

Evgeny: How was the installation received?

David: Stafford held an event for his 66th birthday, where he invited all his friends and served wine and food. The event was held in the installation, and people were socializing and laughing, which Stafford found inappropriate as he wanted people to experience the requiem as a profound meditation on life, death, and the universe.

Evgeny: Can you tell us about the book for which Beer was commissioned in Canada?

David: Yes, the book was called Pebbles to Computers: The Thread and was written by Stafford with photographs by Hans Blohm . Stafford designed the book's layout using a red thread, which spiraled from pebbles to early Greek computer objects, Charles Babbage , and modern transistors. When Oxford University Press Canada published the book, Stafford was disheartened because the designer had chopped down the dimensions from the ones they had originally given him, and the red thread disappeared off the page throughout the book.

Evgeny: Can you tell us more about The Chronicles of Wizard Prang , another book by Beer?

David: The Chronicles of Wizard Prang was a book that Stafford was very proud of. It was a playful philosophical book that dealt with metaphysics and gave him the freedom to be playful. It included issues of sex, life, and death, and Vanilla had done some illustrations for it. [Fredmund] Malik's management center had the book available online. Stafford had an incredible sense of humor and was always a ludic mind.

Evgeny: Writing a book like this must have been a rather gutsy move, don’t you think?

David: Stafford's work was always somewhat polarizing, especially in the management and business communities. Some people were very critical of his ideas and writing style, while others found him to be quite insightful and helpful. As for myself, I was a fan of his writing style and ideas. I felt like I understood Stafford well enough to appreciate his work and not get too offended by any criticism.

Stafford wrote some chapters into The Chronicles of Wizard Prang specifically for me after I wrote to him about my father's death, and they were about death and how to deal with it. They were different from the rest of his book, and it was extraordinary. I was deeply touched by his gesture. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that these chapters will ever be published because times have changed.

Evgeny: What are some notable books of poetry that Beer wrote?

David: He wrote several collections of poetry, including On the Move, which chronicled his travels, and Residues of Joy, which was about his love life. The poems in Residues of Joy were very moving, and some of them were quite erotic, as Stafford was very interested in the Hindu tantric tradition. He drew inspiration from the erotic carvings on Hindu temples and other artifacts.

BEER IN THE CYBERNETIC UNIVERSE

Evgeny: Could you tell us a bit about Beer’s main influences from the cybernetic world?

David: Warren McCulloch  was a very colorful and eccentric character from MIT and greatly influenced Stafford's work. Stafford met him and other people during his tour of America for conferences and other events in 1960. Warren was also a poet, and Stafford wrote some very moving poems after Warren passed away. Stafford was always very loyal to his network of friends and would never let anyone down. Warren was also a blacksmith and a great drinker, which were two things they shared.

Stafford had also met Norbert Wiener  and was greatly influenced by his book on cybernetics and management. Wiener was due to stay with Stafford and his family in 1964, and he had prepared a room for him with flowers. Unfortunately, Stafford received a call that Wiener had died of a heart attack in Sweden just as he was about to board the plane to London. This was a significant loss for Stafford, who was deeply impacted by Wiener's work.

Heinz von Foerster  was also a major figure for Stafford and a very colorful character. He was a stage magician and an original thinker who coined the phrase “second-order cybernetics” that included the observer in the system. Stafford worshiped him and his work. I also had some contact with Heinz.

Evgeny: Out of curiosity, how did you come into contact with von Foerster?

David: I wrote to Heinz at his address in Pescadero, California, introducing myself as a friend of Stafford's. I included a cassette of Brian Eno's music and an anthology of ambient music that I had put together. I even included a novel by Flan O'Brien , my favorite Irish author, which I thought Heinz might enjoy. A few weeks after sending the package, I received a surprise parcel from Heinz packed with all of his papers, including his writings and a book about him called The Dream of Reality. He even said it was the last copy and out of print, hoping I would enjoy it. We had a lovely long chat after that.

Evgeny: What about Stafford’s friendship with Gordon Pask ?

David: Gordon was another eccentric man I met during this time. He looked like the early Doctor Who, with mad hair, a monocle, and a cape. His ideas were quite technical, and I found it challenging to understand them. However, those who knew him well and had a more technical or mathematical mind worshiped him. I had lunch with him and his wife in a pub, and he even signed some books I had.

Evgeny: What happened to Beer's correspondence with the people you mentioned?

David: When Stafford was moving to the cottage, he decided to destroy all of his correspondence and masses of his stuff in a bonfire. He was having some kind of a breakdown, and this was a cathartic action for him to start afresh. The bonfire went on for days and days, burning all of his correspondence with Wiener, McCulloch, Bateson, Von Foerster, and more. He later regretted this decision and said it could have served as an archive for researchers. But at the time, he wasn't thinking like that. And so, with that, the Bateson link is gone, and we will never know what they were writing to each other.

Evgeny: You’ve mentioned Brian Eno’s interest in Stafford Beer’s ideas. But I know that over the years you’ve also been in touch with Robert Fripp . Did he also take an interest in Stafford’s ideas?

David: Robert Fripp is a great rock guitarist who collaborated with Brian Eno on several albums in the 1970s. He is also a fan of Stafford Beer's books, although he did not apply the concepts in the same way that Eno did. Instead, Fripp was more interested in the teachings of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky , and J.G. Bennett, who had set up a school teaching esoteric science in Sherbourne or Dorset. Fripp studied under Bennett and eventually became the head of the school after Bennett's death. Stafford and Fripp had a mutual interest in the enneagram, which was a significant symbol for Bennett and derived from Sufism. Stafford and Bennett had met and discussed metaphysical ideas over lunch at the Athenaeum, a club in London known for its eccentric members. Stafford would later incorporate the enneagram into his Team Syntegrity  process. Unfortunately, a meeting between Stafford and Fripp did not come to fruition as both were in the wrong continent at the time.

Evgeny: And what can you tell us about George Spencer-Brown  and his connection to Stafford Beer?

David: George Spencer-Brown wrote the dense book Laws of Form  and worked for Sigma, a company founded by Stafford. Stafford funded him while he wrote his book and even housed him, although he was an eccentric character who liked to write in the bath, much to the annoyance of Stafford's family. Stafford suspected that Spencer-Brown was the illegitimate child of philosopher Bertrand Russell , but there is no concrete evidence to support this claim.

I ran a catalog business specializing in the history of ideas, cybernetics, and systems, which was inspired by Stafford's work. This was long before the internet, so I had to drive around and walk around to find all these books. Every few months, I would send out a catalog by snail mail to a mailing list, and the response was overwhelming. One day, I received a call from Spencer-Brown, who had seen his book, Laws of Form, listed in the catalog at a much lower price than he believed it was worth. He was outraged and demanded to know how I could dare to price his masterpiece so low. During the conversation, Spencer-Brown started talking and didn't allow me to get a word in. His language was very loud and quite rude, which got a bit wearing after a while. When I asked Spencer-Brown about other notable figures, such as Gregory Bateson and Alan Watts, he replied that they were all egomaniacs. It was quite extraordinary to hear such comments coming from him. He also dismissed Francisco Varela's  attempts to take the ideas in Laws of Form further, saying that Varela didn't understand his work at all and was an idiot.

When I phoned him a couple of years later, I introduced myself and said, "Hello, is that Spencer-Brown?" He replied, "Yes, hello." I then explained what I needed. They were about to announce the Nobel Prize winner, and apparently, he was expecting a call from Sweden. Spencer-Brown interrupted me and said, "You know, it's very disappointing that you’re not from the Nobel prize committee. Don't be long on the phone because they might be trying to get through to me." Of course, he never got the prize. Nonetheless, his book Laws of Form sold incredibly well and went into paperback and different languages.

POLITICS & CLASS

Evgeny: Can you tell us about Stafford Beer's political views in the 50s and 60s?

David: Stafford identified himself as a socialist during the 1950s and 60s, and was known as a "champagne socialist" because of his wealth and support for the Labour Party. He later became disillusioned with Tony Blair's  New Labour, which he felt was a continuation of Thatcher's policies.

Evgeny: Who were the notable figures in the government during this period, and did they have any interaction with Beer?

David: Harold Wilson was the prime minister, and Tony Benn  was the minister for technology and science. They showed interest in Stafford's ideas but never followed through on the plans he presented to them.

Evgeny: How did Beer's experience in Chile affect him and his political views?

David: Stafford's experience in Chile was a turning point for him, and he became a different man after that. He got rid of all his possessions, including his Rolls Royces, and limited his income to the country's average. In 1992, he even voted for the Welsh national party, Plaid Cymru , which was the first time he had ever voted against Labour. Stafford didn't talk about politics much. He had a lot of integrity in his beliefs and lived them out in his daily life. He was very comfortable with ordinary people, particularly farmers around Wales.

Evgeny: Can you tell us more about the Athenaeum club  and its significance for Beer?

David: The Athenaeum is one of London's oldest and most exclusive private members clubs. It was founded in 1824 and is located in Pall Mall, Piccadilly. The club is known for its impressive collection of books, artworks, and historic artifacts, and its membership includes many of the world's leading intellectuals, politicians, and cultural figures.

Stafford Beer was a member of the Athenaeum club and was very proud of his membership. It was where he could rub shoulders with other intellectuals and show that he was part of the scene. However, he was also critical of the fact that the club remained a gentleman's club and he actively campaigned for women to be allowed in. Stafford strongly advocated for women's rights and believed that women should have the same opportunities as men. He was particularly interested in the rights of intellectual women and believed that they deserved to be members of the Athenaeum club. Margaret Thatcher  was supposed to be granted membership when she became Prime Minister, but she declined the invitation.

Evgeny: How did Stafford's background shape his relationship with the Athenaeum club?

David: He did not come from a privileged background, and he did not have any formal academic qualifications. I think his membership of the Athenaeum club was a way for him to show that he was a serious intellectual and to gain acceptance in London's intellectual scene. It was also a way for him to connect with other intellectuals and share his ideas.

Evgeny: Beer seems to have taken on different personas throughout his life. How did this impact his work and how he was perceived by others?

David: Yes, Stafford may have adopted a persona of a guru-like figure. He liked playing it like an actor, and he enjoyed acting in different parts of life. However, this may have caused some people to put him on too much of a pedestal, causing him to be stuck in certain masks. While his work had a wider application and was important in epistemology, he fell off the radar of most people in management studies, except for a small group of people.

Evgeny: What were Beer's hobbies and interests, and how did they influence his work?

David: Stafford's hobbies included spinning, yoga, reading classics – Greek and Roman – and staying put. However, he didn't stay put for long and spent a significant amount of time commuting between rural Wales and Toronto, meeting new friends and making demands of his family. His work spoke to a generation in management and business that changed from the late 70s onwards. He had a chip on his shoulder since he never received a degree, which drove him to make his books show some intellectual weight and gravitas. He had a playful approach to the design of his books, including using "Later in the Bar" sections in his book "Heart of Enterprise"  to make the ideas more accessible.